Posts by Disillusioned JW

98

Better off PIMA than POMA or POMO.

by ExBethelitenowPIMA in

the situation is many of us are pima and all putting on a front, sometimes saying something we don’t fully believe.

or at least are actually agnostic about but a hope that it’s true.. but it can be useful if someone is really going through a hard time or has something they are very worried about, to say things like well let’s hope there is not much longer of this old system.. this can be useful in an awkward situation where you just don’t know what to do or say.

it’s a little bit of hope that can help when there is nothing else.. my agnosticism just means i won’t look back over decades thinking i wasted my life.

Disillusioned JW

Sea Breeze, thanks for your followup post. I believe, as stated by a number of atheistic scientists, that there is cosmic purpose for us and that no god gave us a purpose.

Our purpose is subjective in the same sense that our preferences for certain flavors or certain colors is subjective. Regarding what is someone's purpose involves murder, it like the way our USA constitution says we have certain freedoms. The Supreme Court has ruled that the extent of some of those freedoms is limited by whether or not the acting of them by a person hinders the same freedoms of others (for example how one practices their religion or there philosophy). Humans are social beings and we are all dependent (though to varying degrees) upon other humans, unless someone is like a feral child living in the wild with no human language. As a result, especially if we live in cities, we need to get along (at least to some extent) with other humans, and thus murder is not acceptable (at least not me and most other people). There are thus natural limits on what kind of purposes people can get away with giving to themselves and carrying out.

To say that "atheists do in fact beleive[sic] that we are just chemicals and copying mistakes" in quite accurate. We are a collection of chemicals in which many of the chemicals are highly animated and grouped in such a manner that their grouping consists of living cells. Likewise the living cells in the brains are grouped in such a way that mind is produced and exists. Likewise working human made electronic computers make decisions, and such is possible because of the way the components of the computer are structured and organized, because of the data inputs to the computer, and because of the electrical power in the operating computer.

Sea Breeze, my post on page 5 of this topic thread did not was specifically "highlighting moral subjectivity as a great tenet of atheism". My comment about a great tenet of atheism was about freedom to choose one's purpose - not about morality being subjective. In this topic thread I have avoided the topic of whether morality is subjective or not, except to the extent of what I mention above in this post.

98

Better off PIMA than POMA or POMO.

by ExBethelitenowPIMA in

the situation is many of us are pima and all putting on a front, sometimes saying something we don’t fully believe.

or at least are actually agnostic about but a hope that it’s true.. but it can be useful if someone is really going through a hard time or has something they are very worried about, to say things like well let’s hope there is not much longer of this old system.. this can be useful in an awkward situation where you just don’t know what to do or say.

it’s a little bit of hope that can help when there is nothing else.. my agnosticism just means i won’t look back over decades thinking i wasted my life.

Disillusioned JW

cofty, I don't think I was not equivocating about 'proof'. Instead I was thinking about it in the strict way you mentioned regarding proof, such as in the realm of mathematics and in formal deductive logic, but even those involve starting with premises/assumptions/axioms (even if such are well supported). For all we known, that which we perceive as reality could merely be simulation on some powerful computer. A number of atheistic scientists who fully accept evolution say that is a very real possibility. I consider such ideas, and the similar idea in the science fiction movie called the Matrix, as well as the idea everything I perceive and experience might be dream I am having. There have many times in my life when I though I had woke from a horrible dream only to find I was in another dream (or perhaps a different phase of the same dream), and even to find myself later in a third dream, before I actually became awake.

Though I am highly convinced that all of the current species on Earth have descended from a common ancestral species, it has technically not been proven (in the strict sense of proof in mathematics). For example, perhaps some of the species on Earth descended from an ancestor which never existed on Earth (such as by panspermia from another world, perhaps even by a life designed and created by an unknown extraterrestrial intelligence). The idea is very well illustrated in the science fiction movie called "MIssion to Mars" (and I own a DVD of the movie). It is a very good movie.

Furthermore, as many evolutionist scientists have admitted, there is no way to prove that a god didn't create all of the types of life on Earth by a nonevolutionary process (with them being given the appearance of having descended from the same ancestor). Those scientists have said creationism (depending on how it is worded) is unfalsifiable, since the creationist can say God did it by some mysterious supernatural means.

The perspectives contribute that what I said in the earlier post about "proof'. I am philosophical. I own books specifically about philosophy.

98

Better off PIMA than POMA or POMO.

by ExBethelitenowPIMA in

the situation is many of us are pima and all putting on a front, sometimes saying something we don’t fully believe.

or at least are actually agnostic about but a hope that it’s true.. but it can be useful if someone is really going through a hard time or has something they are very worried about, to say things like well let’s hope there is not much longer of this old system.. this can be useful in an awkward situation where you just don’t know what to do or say.

it’s a little bit of hope that can help when there is nothing else.. my agnosticism just means i won’t look back over decades thinking i wasted my life.

Disillusioned JW

Sea Breeze, Nicolaou did not say (at least in the post you quoted) that people can be happy without a purpose in life. Furthermore, he did not say (at least in the post you quoted from) that his purpose is to tell people that "they can be happy without a purpose in life". Instead he said the following pertaining to his purpose. "I have plenty of hope and purpose in my life, mostly centred around the people I love. Life is good without god." Sea Breeze please stop misconstruing what atheists say regarding atheism and naturalism!

I and many other atheists have a purpose (a multi-faceted one, not just of promoting atheism and naturalism) in life, it is a purpose I have chosen myself. My life is better without belief in YHWH God (and slavery to God and to religion), Armageddon, hell fire eternal torment, the devil and demons, and many other doctrines of supernaturalism. Many people don't need some alleged deity to assign a purpose to them. People can choose their own purpose! That is part of the great uplifting message of atheist naturalism! I prefer the purpose I chose for myself to the one the WT says is my purpose (namely to worship Jehovah God and to be a farmer in the new world) and to the purpose mentioned in the book of Revelation (of being a priest in the temple of God in heaven and of being a king).

It is not atheist's ideas on topic which are irrational. It is some of your ideas about atheist's ideas of this topic which is irrational. The supernatural ideas of Christianity are what is absurd - not atheism and scientific naturalism!

There is something though that I greatly appreciate about the WT's JW religion. It is the idea that all false religion will come to a complete end. I relish that idea. I too want all false religion to end (though I don't expect it will ever happen as long as our species continues to exist, but it can greater become far less prevalent). But I want it to end without people being forced to be nonreligious. I want religious people to voluntarily cease being religion (such as a result of persuasion and of them drawing their own conclusions in the matter). I want all beliefs in the existence of the supernatural to cease! The world and human society would be so much better if such was the case (provided it was not due to coercion)!

98

Better off PIMA than POMA or POMO.

by ExBethelitenowPIMA in

the situation is many of us are pima and all putting on a front, sometimes saying something we don’t fully believe.

or at least are actually agnostic about but a hope that it’s true.. but it can be useful if someone is really going through a hard time or has something they are very worried about, to say things like well let’s hope there is not much longer of this old system.. this can be useful in an awkward situation where you just don’t know what to do or say.

it’s a little bit of hope that can help when there is nothing else.. my agnosticism just means i won’t look back over decades thinking i wasted my life.

Disillusioned JW

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3522158/ says the following.

"The wheat group has evolved through allopolyploidization, namely, through hybridization among species from the plant genera Aegilops and Triticum followed by genome doubling.

... HYBRIDIZATION and polyploidization are ubiquitous modes of evolution in plants and in other eukaryotes (reviewed by Van de Peer et al. 2009). The wheat group (genera Aegilops and Triticum) emphasizes the impact of hybridization and polyploidization on species evolution in nature and under domestication. For example, bread wheat has a complex genome consisting of three related genomes that derived from three different diploid species; it is called an allohexaploid (allo, from Greek, meaning “different”). Pasta wheat is an allotetraploid."

98

Better off PIMA than POMA or POMO.

by ExBethelitenowPIMA in

the situation is many of us are pima and all putting on a front, sometimes saying something we don’t fully believe.

or at least are actually agnostic about but a hope that it’s true.. but it can be useful if someone is really going through a hard time or has something they are very worried about, to say things like well let’s hope there is not much longer of this old system.. this can be useful in an awkward situation where you just don’t know what to do or say.

it’s a little bit of hope that can help when there is nothing else.. my agnosticism just means i won’t look back over decades thinking i wasted my life.

Disillusioned JW

Sea Breeze, based upon what you said about your age in 1976, we about the same age (though you are slightly older than me). In the year 1975 (and prior to that year) I did not put great expectation in the WT's ideas about 1975 (regarding what the WT said might happen in that year). That is because I knew of WT claims made during the few years (or several months) prior to 1975 which made disclaimers that the great tribulation, Armageddon, and the new world (in which Satan is abyssed for 1000 years) might not start by then.

Furthermore, I never did consider the WT's predictions and speculations about 1975 to be prophecies (in the biblical sense of prophecies, at least as defined by the WT, though not in the sense of the general public's idea of the word "prophecy") or examples of the WT claiming to act as a prophet. That is because I viewed them as only being expectations and speculations based upon interpretations the Bible, and not something claimed to be revelations received by the people of the WT directly from God. The WT never claimed that Jehovah God gave them a personal/direct revelation about 1975. I thus did not get stumbled by 1975 and the WT's pronouncements regarding it (that is, until much more recently when I discovered some much stronger claims the WT made about 1975 than I had known prior to the year 2015 or so), and I got baptized in the early 1980s.

Since you strike me as very conservative (theologically and politically) I am thus surprised that you ever (even at age 13) smoked marijuana. In contrast, as a child though I leaned towards being liberal in regards to my beliefs in social/human rights and political views, and though I am now theologically liberal (to the point of being an atheist) and politically very liberal/progressive, I have l never smoked marijuana nor consumed any other substance while it was ever under ban as being too dangerous a drug. That is because since early childhood I have wanted to protect my health. Now, the vast majority of the time I even avoid eating desert (even small candies), even when they are offered to me for free more than once a week, because I wish to avoid spiking my sugar levels. [Note: though I am very liberal/progressive in regards to what I believe are valid social/human rights and in regards to political policies, morally I personally live primarily by conservative Christian values.]

Did you ever go back to taking high school courses and/or did did you ever get a high school diploma or a GED? If not, that is sad.

98

Better off PIMA than POMA or POMO.

by ExBethelitenowPIMA in

the situation is many of us are pima and all putting on a front, sometimes saying something we don’t fully believe.

or at least are actually agnostic about but a hope that it’s true.. but it can be useful if someone is really going through a hard time or has something they are very worried about, to say things like well let’s hope there is not much longer of this old system.. this can be useful in an awkward situation where you just don’t know what to do or say.

it’s a little bit of hope that can help when there is nothing else.. my agnosticism just means i won’t look back over decades thinking i wasted my life.

Disillusioned JW

Update: On page 5 of this topic I said "a new genera has never been directly observed as coming into existence", but in case of plant that might be correct. Polyploidy evolution has been detected in plants and in at least one case the result (wheat) was a hybrid of three species from at least two different genera. Such might thus constitute macroevolution.

12

Another new missing part of the Bible found

by ExBethelitenowPIMA in

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/22011278/new-bible-chapter-hidden-verses-discovered-erased-scribe/.

i wonder what the remaining members of the gb will make of this?.

i excited to read all of this once it’s released and compare with the rest of mathew.

Disillusioned JW

The article Boogerman provided in the link at https://www.iflscience.com/new-chapter-of-the-bible-found-hidden-inside-1750-year-old-text-68417 is important. That is because the article says "... the latest find was particularly special, containing a translation a century older than the oldest Greek translations, including the Codex Sinaiticus." However the article shouldn't have stated that ancient Greek NT manuscripts are translations of the NT (unless it can demonstrated that they are, such as proving that the NT was first written in Syraic). But despite saying the discovery is of a translation older than the Sinaiticus, the article says the discovered text "... was first written in the 3rd century CE and copied in the 6th century CE" thus the one found is a 6th century copy instead of a 3rd century copy. https://catholicherald.co.uk/long-lost-chapter-of-bible-discovered/ confirms it from the 6th century since it says the "... biblical text has been discovered nearly 1,500 years after it was initially written".

98

Better off PIMA than POMA or POMO.

by ExBethelitenowPIMA in

the situation is many of us are pima and all putting on a front, sometimes saying something we don’t fully believe.

or at least are actually agnostic about but a hope that it’s true.. but it can be useful if someone is really going through a hard time or has something they are very worried about, to say things like well let’s hope there is not much longer of this old system.. this can be useful in an awkward situation where you just don’t know what to do or say.

it’s a little bit of hope that can help when there is nothing else.. my agnosticism just means i won’t look back over decades thinking i wasted my life.

Disillusioned JW

cofty, as a result (of what I stated in the 2nd paragraph of my prior post to you) people can make a legitimate case that evolution in the sense of macroevolution has not been demonstrated as proven (to 100% certainty), and a number of scientists say that science does not actually 'prove' anything, since at any moment a new scientific discovery can be made which disproves an existening theory of science or other idea or finding of science (even one considered to be a fact).

98

Better off PIMA than POMA or POMO.

by ExBethelitenowPIMA in

the situation is many of us are pima and all putting on a front, sometimes saying something we don’t fully believe.

or at least are actually agnostic about but a hope that it’s true.. but it can be useful if someone is really going through a hard time or has something they are very worried about, to say things like well let’s hope there is not much longer of this old system.. this can be useful in an awkward situation where you just don’t know what to do or say.

it’s a little bit of hope that can help when there is nothing else.. my agnosticism just means i won’t look back over decades thinking i wasted my life.

Disillusioned JW

Sea Breeze I notice you said about yourself that "The 8th grade was the last grade I completed in High School." Don't you mean that the 8th grade was the last grade you completed and that thus you did not complete any grade of high school? Or do you really mean that 8th grade was really a grade in high school at that the time and place you went to 8th grade.

I have always lived in the western USA and where I went to school the 8th grade was the last grade of elementary school at the school I attended before high school. [My school was kindergarten though 8th grade, but kindergarten preceded 1st grade.] In my then city it later (starting in the year right after I graduated) became the last grade of middle school, but in both cases 8th grade was the last grade before the start of high school. 9th grade is the first grade of high school (with 12th grade being the final grade of high school.

However my maternal grandmother (who was raised in the south, in the USA) who said she while young was never permitted to attend 8th grade because she was black and that blacks were not allowed to attend high school. [Much later as an adult she obtained further education, apparently even high school education and, according to mom, took some college courses. My grandmother was a devout JW, starting from before my mom became an adult.] She thought 8th grade was part of high school, but to me that idea is wrong. A PDF of a census document posted on Ancestry.com mentioned that my maternal grandmother completed 8th grade, despite my grandmother saying she never attended 8th grade and despite her saying she was forbidden by racist laws in the southern USA of the time from attending 8th grade and high school. [My said that the census worker who filled out the census form might have falsely claimed that my grandmother attended 8th grade, in order to hide the fact the fact of grandmother being withheld from attending 8th grade. But I doubt that view is correct.]

Several months ago I checked a Wikipedia article on the topic and it confirmed that in the USA that 9th grade is the first grade of high school.

Sea Breeze, were you raised in the south (the part of the USA which commonly called 'the south", even though there are western states in the southern USA which are excluded from be called part of the south)?

98

Better off PIMA than POMA or POMO.

by ExBethelitenowPIMA in

the situation is many of us are pima and all putting on a front, sometimes saying something we don’t fully believe.

or at least are actually agnostic about but a hope that it’s true.. but it can be useful if someone is really going through a hard time or has something they are very worried about, to say things like well let’s hope there is not much longer of this old system.. this can be useful in an awkward situation where you just don’t know what to do or say.

it’s a little bit of hope that can help when there is nothing else.. my agnosticism just means i won’t look back over decades thinking i wasted my life.

Disillusioned JW

cofty I notice you said to me "when somebody literally won't affirm that we can know the earth isn't flat because 'epistemic humility' then philosophy has become utter bullshit." The idea expressed in that statement of your is part of your philosophy.

Though I agree with you biological evolution is true, the fact is that biological evolution has not been directly observed as that taking place at level beyond speciation. Though new species (according to some definitions of "species") have been directly observed to come into existence, evolution has not yet ever been observed as taking place above the taxonomic level of species. For example a new genera has never been directly observed as coming into existence. As result, I am not convinced that macroevolution has been directly observed as having taken place.